Session 2

(These are the notes represent the discussions from the 01/09/03 session; it is intended to represent the conversation and discussion to the best of our ability, it is not a verbatim transcription).

For the Union:
Jason Evans: worker
Holly Krig: worker
Bill Pearson, President
Bernie Hesse, Organizer
Jennifer Christensen, Representative

For the Company:
Maria Zachman
Mark Shiffmann, Attorney at Law
James Lathrop, Director HR

MS: Bill and I had a very brief discussion about process about how we should address this. As I mentioned to you last time, any language that is underlined is new, any not underlined is yours, and not agreed to is struck through.
Each article is on its own page, (we may have killed a few trees)
I have a full response, all economics is struck through, not that we aren�t agreeing, but �
This is explained at the beginning of the contract.
What Bill and I had talked about is we will go through the whole proposal, have a discussion, break so you can discuss this with your group.
I would then suggest we go through and pick several articles to work on.

A couple of other preliminary things, you had asked for our health care costs, we don�t have them yet, we are working on them, it is year end and we should have them for you.
Do you have the SPD (summary plan description � health care plan)

BP: I will bring it tomorrow.

MS: (Briefly summarizes changes in language [see attached management proposals] Questions, responses and discussions are as noted.)

BP: in 4.2 what do you do now if someone is hired at a higher rate.

JL: At 6 months .25 at one year .25 and then into the �pool�.
If they are hired at a higher rate they would skip the progression and go into the pool, annual schedule (review).

BP: in 4.4 is that your current arrangement? No overtime after 8?

MS/JL: Yes, it is more than 40 in a workweek.

BP: On the two consecutive you usually get two consecutive off?

MZ: It depends on what the employees want

JL: Unless the business needs require, employees generally work one weekend day.

BP: Currently how do you determine FT

MZ: Currently it is more than half

BP: Are there any PTers that are PT that don�t want to be? No

MS: See that is the difference in the grocery industry, people start as PT and progress to FT. At borders people go back and forth and we may not be able to accommodate it immediately

BP: Do people in your store have half hours or hour lunches.

MZ: Both. There preference or store needs.

BP: Is there ever a time when they don�t?

MZ: They are scheduled for a lunch.

BP: You struck the language for working 2 nights.

MS: Again we try to accommodate everyone�s preferences some want all closings some want days. It varies based on the needs of the store and the staff.

HK: I think that the salient point is that you keep mentioning the needs of the employees, but many may want 5 consecutive days and that they are not mutually exclusive.)

MS: We have a flexible schedule where we try to accommodate peoples� needs,

HK: I don�t think that is necessarily true, I think it is that the store is under staffed and I don�t think that the employees should be punished for that.

MS: You have the employees based on the sales in the store. That is a determination of management. It is what works in the store.

HK: I don�t think you can say it works in the store because you have not worked in it.

MS: The set number of payroll hours, not people, is a management decision. How it is divided is an appropriate topic of discussion. That you don�t think you have enough people in the store can be a topic for discussion.

HK: You are easily able to appeal to that, but we are prepared to argue the case.
Because there are some who want to work consecutive days does not mean that other employees cannot continue to work flexible schedules.

MS: Our position is that we are not willing to guarantee consecutive days.

BP: I am surprised you �popped� B already.
I think that when employees have some say in their company and when workers are included in the functioning of the store (you have a better working environment). What you see here, with what Holly is saying, is an example of how people in the store feel - that even though you are (a large corporation) why can�t the employees, at least within the store, function as a small company.

MS: I think that already exists and scheduling is an example. Scheduling changes based on employees needs, and we do a pretty good job of that. Some people want to do volunteer work, some have school and that scheduling is done informally.

My experience is typically scheduling in supermarkets is very much seniority based, once they are there they are pretty much locked into those hours unless someone leaves, I have been around for a long time something changes in my life I can�t get a new schedule. In our organization, when those changes happen we try to meet our employees needs. It is extraordinary to meet employ

HK: There is a dichotomy created between (the concept of) flexibility and (rigid) guarantees with the union - I think both can exist, flexibility along with guarantees.

JL: We are not at all receptive to guarantees in schedules. With the exception of the numbers of hours (etc) - with this size of store and the number of employees we would not be able to run the store.

BP: As it becomes more top down it becomes more rigid as a corporate structure

MS: That is true I wouldn�t dispute that

BP: We can say we want six more workers, and you are right that is not a mandatory subject of bargaining, but scheduling is. We wanted to say that we want to say to the employer that workers want input. We want us to take the moral high ground. From Holly and Jason�s stand point they like working at borders. What you are hearing from Holly is what is happening all over.

JL: If we have to reduce hours we share that across employees, before we lay people off. If we put guaranteed hours� we reduce hours by request and then average the hours over a four week period to maintain benefits. our desire is to handle hours in that fashion before we lay people off.

BP: How many FT and PT

MZ: 10 Full time
7 Part time
4 temporary (seasonal) they can be temporary for 120 days and then a decision has to be made.

BP: is there a time in the book business that is slow

JL: the spring can be slow, but it really depends on the releases, if you have a harry potter released during the slow season you will have people come into the store.

MS: We certainly have a busy season.

BP: I am a part time employee, would that employee get hours ahead of a contingent or temporary?

MS/JL: We would certainly have a part-time employee worked during the holiday than a temporary. There is no incentive for us to give the hours to the temporary before PT or contingent.

If we are going to hire temporary seasonals on a FT basis before we do that we are going to pt and contingent employees before hiring seasonal employees

Mostly used for Holiday seasonal and summer vacation coverage.

JE: I started as a seasonal.

MS: Unlike most other environments, our PTers work the hours they work based on their preference, that is not always the case, but it is mostly the case.

BP: (6.1) Probabtion is 60 working days, if they worked one day a week they would be union members in 60 months?

MS: Being members and being on probation is two separate issues.

BP: So the contract covers them but they are still probationary.

MS: They are probationary only for the purposes of benefits (we will get to that) and whether or not we decided to keep the employee.

(note typo in 9.6 corrected to state no loss of seniority)

BP: you�ve struck 10.2 (mediation)

MS: We don�t feel mediation is necessary. If we have a serious grievance here that will get attention beyond Maria. If we can work it out, we will. We don�t feel we need the extra step.

Everything else economic, we are probably fine with a two year term.

BP: Let me make notes on the wage page.

JL: There are multiple people in classifications:
Booksellers: 11 booksellers (4 full time)
In this store we do not have cashiers.
4 Another classification is Hourly Supervisors
2 SPT
The other classification that exists that isn�t here now is cashier.
0 cashier

JL: other classifications are music sellers and caf�

BP: from a hierarchy stand point is there a pecking order? Is there a ranking?

JL: generally if would go from bookseller to hourly supervisor

Cashier (entry)
Bookseller/music/books (premium)
SPT
Hourly
Premiums are in information sent to Union

BP: I don�t want to read anything into your comments, is there a chance it could become a bigger store?

JL: Because of the constraints of the store, and space, if we do come up with a larger space we would look at adding caf� or books. There are very few stores without music and caf�.

Break �

Resume

BP: let me start on the first page � we are going to take them in a pecking order,
I am more non-traditional than you I think often times other pieces are related to other pieces. One of my largest disappointments is that we have sat in negotiations and negotiated over language which no one cared about and then spent a day on economics-

MS: with thee exception of Health Care economics, it is either this or this. Language can be massaged. I had 85 meetings with a teachers union, 84 � were about language.

BP: These are going to be interesting, as we talk about economics that over-lap language.
Under article 1 TA (tentative agreement 1.1 - 11:39a.m.

Section 1.2 I need to understand-
Standard language, once you have completed your probationary you are a member.
You can join (the Union), but the Union cannot help you with a termination.

MS: If you would rather not have them be members until they complete their probationary period, we would change that.

BP: What would the advantage be to you to have a contract not cover a PT who worked only one or two days a week.
Why are you proposing a longer probationary period.

MS: So we can see how the employee (works out) their attendance etc.
If we are going to commit to a standard that we won�t separate people for cause � this only applies to new people � we need time to evaluate the employee.

BP: So a full time employee who works 5 days would have to work 3 months on probation?

HK: I was looking in the Borders hand book for a definition of a probationary period-

MS: There is none. The borders employers are always at will employees. When we make disciplinary decisions they are always well founded.

BP: I work from standards � have not seen this concept that you have members that you cannot represent.

Section1.3 you have struck initiation fees �
Logic behind that?

MS: We just choose not to � we will deduct dues
Administratively it is easier to take dues out once a month.

BP: We have changed our dues structure � do if for some reason some reason they did not work, we don�t charge them. Under the monthly system (the old system), if they didn�t work and didn�t pay does, the next month they would have to pay dues times 2. We don�t make an adjustment on a weekly system. We have built a software system, instead of exchanging paperwork, you can transmit once a month � we download it - you plug in an amount � say 5 dollars a week.

MS: Why don�t you give us an example of your software and we can give it to our payroll system.

BP: Easier for the employer, deduct and remit.

JL: Can I just ask the question why you don�t want to deduct initiation fees?

MS: We just don�t feel it is appropriate for us to deduct initiation fees.

HK: Why isn�t it in appropriate?

MS: We just don�t want to do it. We will do dues check-off, not initiation fees check-off.

MS: missed one word on managements rights, add �subcontract�

BP: that is a big one.
Articles 3 and 4 we will talk about tomorrow.

Article 5 �
Some questions before we break
When is a contingent employee no longer a contingent employee �
When they have a regular schedule � or if they haven�t worked in a quarter

JL: An employee may request to become a contingent employee
We don�t hire contingent employees off the street.
If they become available and there is a schedule available they can come back as PT and FT.

Typically it doesn�t happen very often. Generally when people become contingent they are moving out of the store

BP: Only because the collective bargaining agreement will create some changes in structure of how you operate. I have some experience in health care where on call(contingent) picking up over a hundred hours �

JL: For us that would be a part-timer.

MS: Let me suggest something. I see your concern -that is not how we do this.
We would have no problem agreeing to a maximum number of hours with the exception of the holiday period or maybe summer vacations.

JL: If they are working on a regular weekly basis, they would be PT.
If a contingent goes a quarter without working at least 8 hours we terminate them.

There is a whole lot we have to do if someone becomes contingent, so we are not encouraging it.

BP: in 5.4 you have struck our proposal on the number of FT positions I see nothing to replace it.

MS: because we do not want to have a set number of anything. We want to retain the flexibility to staff the store with the right combination of people. Part-timers provide flexibility. The company has always been based primarily on full-time staff.

BP: WE have talked about the probationary period unless you have something else to cover.

Lunch break.

Resume 1:16 p.m.

BP: Article 9 Leaves of absence
60 work days

MS: 60 days seems to be an aweful lot of union leave time for a store this size. Are you looking at several for a few days?

BP: I can see taking one or two people out for a long period of time.

BP: I see only FMLA, there is no where you address a medical leave of absence

We will take care of that tomorrow

You also struck the language regarding returning to work after the leave (scheduling etc.)

Must be a line missing from management�s rights to discipline for just cause.
That is where I normally have it.

BP: I just haven�t seen it put into managements rights before

We agree that discipline is for just cause, we just don�t know where we are going to put it

One of the issues I have is that you have struck the issue of wage discrepancy claims � that hasn�t been our experience, we have had members

That wouldn�t even need the grievance procedure. If there was an error, informally we would say, we blew it, we�d fix it. If we made a mistake, we fix it. We go back and fix it.

With using the term �affectional� preference we would agree to 13.1
We need a definition of affection.

BH: we actually use this term in our grocery contracts.

BP: We are agreeable to a two-year contract.
On your article 4 (4.3) 35 hours worked in 4 or 5 days shall constitute a normal week�s work a FT schedule other than�
So what is a normal weeks work?

MS: Some of our employees want to work four days

BP: So it is 4 �9 hour days?

JL: It is variable based on the needs of the employee.

BP: The reason it became a discussion point is that when it gets down to the point where we need to be, is it 35 or 38?

JL: Our definition all along is 35.
When you hire a fulltime employee is that what you tell them?

MZ: a minimum of 35 hours.

BP: The reason we bring this up, is that the difference between 35 and 40 is a substantial amount of money. When you reach an agreement on the number of hours, that is the number of hours they own. And that is not what I am hearing

JL: That doesn�t mean that if we had payroll issues in the store we wouldn�t reduce them to 35 � we would not expect to reduce (Jason) from 38 to 35 to maintain benefits.
Our historical practice has been to reduce everyone to prevent layoffs.
We do not envision reducing hours, but that is our vision of how we address the reduction of hours

BP: We�ve talked about the grocery contract; a 40-hour contract is 40 hours. Once I start taking money from them as a representative and they have been at 40 for 20 years, and now they are reduced to 35- it reduces the relevance of seniority.

JL: I will tell you over the last 10 years FT/PT ratio has changed due to the labor market up until this last year. When the market was tougher to hire, often you could only find PTers. Yes, based on what you just stated we do come from different direction. In general we would reduce part-timers to some level and then full-time to some level.

BP: We are running a parallel track to what we are doing here � we now have a staff of 5 organizers. We think there are issues that come to the table that we see as issues to organize around. When we put stuff on the Internet, it does reflect what is happening here. The discussion we just had is the discussion we are going to organize around. We are trying to be as straightforward as we can. This isn�t a trick question to see how bad a corporation can be, because I don�t think you are a bad corporation. We just have workers who want to make some changes.

HK: Let me just respond to the issues of reductions Borders has continued to value all of its employees, just because an employee is full time it does not mean they are more valued than part-time. It has been a philosophical perspective that has served Borders and the employees well.
Clearly there is a subtext that is apparent-
It�s nice of you to say it values its part-time employees as much as its FT employees but
FT employees (jobs) should be valued more because we need to create better jobs as opposed to mediocre jobs as opposed to hours, benefits.
You make the argument that PT employees make the situation more fluid, and yes it does make it more difficult to schedule - but
We are here to say that the onus is on the employer to make the workplace a more livable environment. But, so be it, it must be done.

BP: The debate almost has to be held in a public venue. Our economy is never going to get rebuilt on the backs of $8 /hour jobs. We tried to come to the table without these things out here, we tried to bring things that work and that are in reach. Will you say hell no to stuff, yea, but we�ve heard that a lot our goal is to come out of here to make workers feel more secure and feel that being union had value.