Navigation
User login
Forum topics
New Topics
- Part time hours?
(Borders Books)
(0 replies) - anybody watching
(Borders Books)
(0 replies) - Wal-Mart and Thanksgiving
(Talk is Cheap!)
(0 replies) - Could Borders Modify Customer-Printed Coupons So B
(Borders Books)
(1 reply) - now this will be put in an ad
(Borders Books)
(15 replies)
Most Recently Commented
- New Dress Code??
(Borders Books)
14 replies
(latest replies)
- Part time hours?
(Borders Books)
0 replies
(latest replies)
- now this will be put in an ad
(Borders Books)
15 replies
(latest replies)
- anybody watching
(Borders Books)
0 replies
(latest replies)
- online job app test
(Feedback & Support)
8 replies
(latest replies)
Who's online
Syndicate
What's outrageous? Borders Wages
Hire Date? 4/00
Hourly Rate? $9.50 (w/ $1.50 supervisor "incentive")
Living wage in my neck of the woods for an employer that doesn't provide beneifts? $10.30
Questions. . .
1) How do the rest of y'all stack up? Rural? Urban? Have you compared notes with co-workers at review times and found not everyone was created equal? Retailers down the street starting people at rates you didn't see for years? Still haven't seen yet? Horror stories of mgrs that did you wrong? Regale me so's I can feel less sh*tty 'bout my own situation.
2) Does anyone know if we're "allowed" to discuss our pay rates with coworkers? Is this a protected right for non-union peoples?
Great info! Do you remember the NLRB topic heading that falls under? Meaning, where would non-organizing workers would be protected in what cases? Or is asking others about their wages considered "organizing activity"? That would be a great link! Can Borders have instituted a new policy since then and still be outside the law on this?
no disagreement though. This either falls under the category of "protected organizing activity" which I mentioned, or it would have to be determined either in court or within the NLRB system.
What I wouldn't DEPEND on is Borders capitulating on anything, even if they have in the past. They will play every ball as it lies, to an agenda we can only imagine, using the rules they choose. Get it? THEY CAN ALWAYS JUST SAY "NO." Nevermind what they said or did yesterday. Don't we know that about them yet? This is one slippery fish to pin!
Then you have to figure out how to get them to say "yes." Maybe the NRLB will be there for you. Maybe not. Maybe they'll cut some deal with the NLRB..a package deal where your case gets flamed. I personally don't hold all my faith in the current state of the United States Government, particularly concerning corporate law.
Try to bear in mind, you are fighting the top rated labor law firm in the country. Now, anyway. I don't know about five years ago. Waving the "my rights" bugaboo in a GM's face might scare him...but Borders really doesn't scare, in my experience. They REACT..coolly..to their own end...like a lizard.
But off the top of my head, make sure
1. you are already "organizing" in that three or more of you are discussing union to insure you are covered. You may need as well to be relatively open about it.
2. make certain when you do take this to the boss and threaten legal action you are prepared to fall under different scrutiny at work.
3. This still would not preclude Borders from firing you or writing you up for other infractions that led to your dismissal. Then you would have to prove it was actually about your "organizing" activity.
4. Are we certain the current Borders climate and corporate officers would capitulate on this or be so open in violating this right? I'm not sure how.
5. are you prepared to wait this out with the NLRB, meaning, while you are unjustly being watched or put out of work?
6. Again, if Borders is not flagrant in violating this statute, are you prepared to loose if the NLRB decides not to take on your case?
oh yeah. And if you are an open organizer in your store, think they're not trying to figure out ways to distract you from the real job of organizing, get you out of that store and, added bonus, f*** with your co-workers heads?
Just talk about your wages in private, trade the info but protect yourself. Don't count on some "right" protecting you ..unless you want your ass over a fire to be the centerpiece of your drive. And hey, if you can take it, why not.
You could be the next Miracle of the Bagel.
[quote:f80e7d1e72="slingblade"] Meaning, where would non-organizing workers would be protected in what cases? Or is asking others about their wages considered "organizing activity"? That would be a great link! Can Borders have instituted a new policy since then and still be outside the law on this?
<snip>
But off the top of my head, make sure
1. you are already "organizing" in that three or more of you are discussing union to insure you are covered. You may need as well to be relatively open about it.
2. make certain when you do take this to the boss and threaten legal action you are prepared to fall under different scrutiny at work.
3. This still would not preclude Borders from firing you or writing you up for other infractions that led to your dismissal. Then you would have to prove it was actually about your "organizing" activity.
4. Are we certain the current Borders climate and corporate officers would capitulate on this or be so open in violating this right? I'm not sure how.
5. are you prepared to wait this out with the NLRB, meaning, while you are unjustly being watched or put out of work?
6. Again, if Borders is not flagrant in violating this statute, are you prepared to loose if the NLRB decides not to take on your case?
Talking about wages is part of "concerted activity" and you don't have to have any association with a registered union to be deemed engaging in concerted activity. Two people talking to each other about how they might improve their wages and working conditions is concerted activity. Talking about wages is an essential part of improving wages, obviously. As long as it's done off the sales floor, you're legally in the right, and, while nothing is a guarantee here, I think the NLRB would be happy to take on such a case.
Frankly, I see this as one of those rights workers have that they don't exercise. Lack of exercise leads to flabby rights in practice.
Sling has a point that an unscrupulous manager may find some other pretext to fire you for, but my sense is that HR would be cautious about cooperating if they though it was a pretext. Borders has tried very hard not to let NLRB complaints get to the level where outsiders would notice. If they litigated this, people would notice.
James is right. Management cannot forbid you to discuss wages. How management reacts to those discussions depends on the managers.
In our store, it wasn't a problem. Our managers were OK. Some of them used to pass along copies of Binc's anti-union memos to us. They helped us out. Even the ones who didn't, they were still friendly, except for one jerk nobody liked anyway. I seem to remember at some point getting a few warnings for not signing no sale receipts on the register, but I have to admit I was pretty sloppy.
Not every management team is going to be that way. The best thing to do is know your rights. There's a good book called "Power on the Job: The Legal Rights of Working People" by Michael Yates. Check it out. He used to belong to the Borders Union email list we had back in 1997. Good guy.
If you're just starting out and don't know much about union or workers rights, that's the book to get.
Arabicon,
Back to your original point, it sounds like you're earning a wage that would fall into the "living wage" category for your neck of the woods. You said that $10.30/hr. with no benefits was the accepted living wage. Do you think your medical benefits, etc. are worth $0.80/hr? If you broke a leg or developed pneumonia, I think you would agree that they are. Then again, maybe I misunderstood.
[quote:b37338a96a="dr_queerlove"]Arabicon,
Back to your original point, it sounds like you're earning a wage that would fall into the "living wage" category for your neck of the woods. You said that $10.30/hr. with no benefits was the accepted living wage. Do you think your medical benefits, etc. are worth $0.80/hr? If you broke a leg or developed pneumonia, I think you would agree that they are. Then again, maybe I misunderstood.
To clarify, "a living wage of no less than $9.00 an hour if employer-paid health benefits are offered, or $10.30 without health benefits" (Living Wage Resource Center). IE, Borders doesn't pay for benefits, they need to up thier wage. Sorry, Dr. Q.
I thought that Borders set wages off a set pay scale. In other words if you know a persons position and time with the company you would know how much they made. Is that correct, or do GMs have some discretion with payroll?
A few concerns...
The Yates book in paperback was only published in 1994. Whenever you are staking something important on a law, be sure to triple check the laws haven't changed or been reinterpreted. They are all the time. And the Bush regime has been slashing through corporate limiting laws with a combine. We're trying to compile a comprehensive reference spot on existing interpretation of labor law...but its not easy! If the law were clear cut and unchanging, we wouldn't need lawyers! Which is what this discussion needs exactly..a labor lawyer.
Remember, anyone who legally defends his or herself has a boob for a client!
This particular law and interpretation may still stand. Just be careful about triple checking any "rights" you have and the laws designed to protect them!
I would also be careful about assuming Borders and its management chain will act predictably based on prior behavior, especially using examples from the start of the union drive in the mid nineties.
And while everything here makes sense, especially exercising those flabby rights muscles...I would still never ASSUME the government will protect you and thus always protect yourself as well...meaning be prepared to accept the consequences in advance of standing up without legal defense.
The real struggle is to organize your store and keep it organized. If confronting management on disclosure rights works towards that end fantastic, do it. If it distracts you from the work of building a solid union in your store, chose your battles wisely. I say let it go, fly under the radar in discussing wages and get the information you want and want to share (relative pay) as quickly as possible. Then decide how to use that information.
one concern I have is that if an "issue" is made of wage disclosure co-workers can react in one of two ways...they wil either defiantly put their pay rate out there to stand up with you...or be that much more reluctant to open their mouth until its all sorted out. The first group would have disclosed to you anyway. The second group might have, before they thought they could get in trouble for it. Your call there.
There are two ways to go when chosing battles...throw everything but the sink at them which can be effective..or concentrate your efforts on pounding the issues that best galvanize your store, embarrass Binc. As long as you can fight for this right or that and keep your eye on the real prize, go for it.
As an at will employee you have no rights in the workplace except for a small specific handful.
(to not be discriminating against for color, religion, gender, etc.; your Weingarten Rights to representation with you at meetings that could result in your dismissal, state by state rights to breaks & lunches, overtime pay, pay for work done, to be protected as an OSHA whistleblower, to organize, to unpaid family leave, to COBRA coverage, to not be sexually harassed, to accurate pay records)
Any other "rights" you'd have to be established in court. Against Borders.
Alone demanding your legal "right" to anything in an at will situation just invites them to find some other reason to let you go. And chances are, even with the above listed rights, you do not have the means to persue them legally on your own, or you will be not working at Borders for months while the government slowly sorts it out for you.
Bottom line, you do not have the "right" to fair working conditions, company information (as an employee) or to a higher wage. Your only option to secure better pay is to organize in some fashion, apply pressure in some fashion and bargain for better pay.
Here in Ann Arbor, the independent down the street pays the starting bookseller the same after six months as the Borders worker is making in five years, for a fraction of the running around.
[quote:af1c7800f8="Arabicon"]
2) Does anyone know if we're "allowed" to discuss our pay rates with coworkers? Is this a protected right for non-union peoples?
You absolutely have the right to discuss your compensation with anyone you want. The IWW went to the NLRB on behalf of a worker at the Chesnut Hill store in Philly over 5 years ago on this issue. The GM had told her employees not to discuss their wages and one did. The GM wrote her up.
Once the NLRB was informed of this, Borders' lawyer realized that the company had no chance of winning this and they settle, posting IIRC a notice on the bulleting board saying that they were in the wrong.
This is open and shut. You have every right to disclose your pay rate to anyone you want. It's part of your right to organize and is often a great organizing tool.